To John from Arlene, a Philadelphian trying to hang on to my gold crown.......(no, I don't have a dentist appointment......) I told my dentist if he tried to take my gold crown he would have to give serious account of this to God..........:)

PROOF OF PRE-TRIB AND MID-TRIB RAPTURES
OK, all of you, help me out here.   It is essential that we do "gather together and edify on another, especially as we SEE that day coming".  And I believe we do.  Sometimes in our learning line upon line, precept upon precept, we can't assemble the picture we are trying for, or that satisfies.  So I offer up these ideas and wait to see you all add to it, take from it, or whatever, as I am one who cannot cease from the attempt at rightly dividing.  With this said,
      We know there is a rapture.  Many say pre-trib, some mid-trib, blah, blah.  I think there is both a pre-trib, and mid-trib rapture.  It occurred to me firstly, that when John was caught up to heaven, he saw 24 elders.  Many say this is the church.  I don't think so.  I think they are the wave-offering that our Lord took up to heaven with Him to present before the father (those resurrected saints who were seen by many hanging around after Christ Himself was raised)  , which is why I think He had to high-tail it up there before Mary could "touch" Him.  By the way, I believe the translation of that word "touch", actually means to obstruct, withhold or delay.  Which means He actually told her "do not delay me, I must go to the Father...".   Anyway, I think if I remember correctly, she had already touched Him.  And they are called "elders" ; well by now they've been up there for some 2000 years and that is not counting their prior lives upon the earth.   John wasn't seeing himself as one of the elders, which more suredly he would be if they were the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.  And we hear of no other resurrection between the saints who rose and those who "are Christ's at His coming...."  However, I do think that John did before-the-fact in his vision actually experience the rapture here at the voice that was as it were a trumpet.
Then things happen, the scroll, the beasts, the angels, and right on up to that great earthquake that sends everyone on earth into bunkers.  And then John see this uncountable multitude in heaven and is asked by one of the elders who these were (as if he didn't know...), turning right around and telling John, "these are they who have come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, etc., etc.,).  Note:  of the bride it later says "and it was GIVEN unto her to be dressed in white linen, which is the righeousness of the saints".  So the bride/saints who are given their garment are definitely a separate group from these who had to wash their own robes.  But getting back before I lose my thoughts (quite common with me), this uncountable number of people are said to have "come out of great tribulation".   So here is my question.   If that great crowd came out of great tribulation, then where are those "for the dead in Christ shall rise first", and then the ones alive.  Because during the last 2000 years, not all of them came out of the great tribulation, in fact none of them did.  And in point of fact, some of them lived quite comfortably, perhaps with problems and annoyances, but not out of great tribulation.  Anyway, all those dead saints, as we are, were promised that they were not appointed unto wrath, although we will suffer the tribulation and sufferings which make us more like Christ and get us into the Kindom.  Then there is the issue of what kind of problems this great crowd of people suffered.   It is said that they were "hungry, thirsty, and the heat of the sun was upon them".   Now, the two witnesses if I am correct will prophecy 1260 days, which most commentators say is the first half of the tribulation, and then are seen much to the consternation of the peoples of the earth being resurrected and called up to heaven.   It is said of their ministry that they shall cause it not to rain as often as they like.   So doubtless they cause some pretty severe famines around the world, seen also in the black horse with weighing scales.   So, this uncountable number of saints have actually lived through the ministry of the two witnesses.  I think they are also raptured/resurrected with the two witnesses at mid-trib.   I say resurrected, because there are souls under the altar up in heaven asking "how long will God wait to avenge", etc., and are told to wait for awhile until their co-horts on the earth are killed and mistreated in the same way.  I think these people are the unwise virgins/late Laodecians, all of whom Christ says "those I love I rebuke and chasten",,,,,,,,,,,,,
WHAT THINKEST THOU???????
Even so, come Lord Jesus    Your sister....Arlene

(p.s.) by the way it is "the Spirit and the bride", who say "Come".  Where is everybody else???  These others are too busy soiling their garments with the ways of the world to say, "Come Lord Jesus....."