Dear WhodaThunk, I am going to answer a few things in your letter in green. Then I want to include for you a couple of articles that may cause you to see things a tad differently; one of them was forwarded by Jim Bramlett to Revelation Files. Thanks for you interest cause it leads to much further discussins. Gerlinda,
You said in you post http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2011/gerlinda1222-3.htm "I once had a person tell me that this couldn't be the face of God because no one ever saw it and lived."
If the shroud was the image of Jesus, then you could view it and live. The scripture that says no one can see the face of God and live, is talking about the literal face of God, not an image.
The shroud of Turin, cannot possibly be the image of Jesus Christ, and one only has to look to how scripture describes Him to know that. While many, most in the Catholic Church, have promoted this as the burial cloth of Jesus, their failure to check this out via scripture indicates to me that their belief in the Bible as God's Word is lacking. The evidence, as compared to scripture is out-standing.
The image that comes to my mind when the so called scientists, who are based in the EU, is; are these the same scientists, 200 0f them, that after two years of research came to the conclusion that water does not hydrate.
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah describes Him as a man who was not handsome, yet this image is of a handsome man. My impression, as a woman, of this face is not that he is handsome but typically Jewish with a very long nose of 6", I have read. I'd say he had a very common look, certainly not the kind Hollywood would rush onto it's screens.
Isaiah 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.Look carefully at the image and don't you see that the beard, on his right side of the face is much thinner as if plucked out. The scripture doesn't tell us the whole beard was plucked out. He gave his cheeks to them. It would be as if grabbing a man by the hair up by the sides of his face and yanking at him. It is the same side that has the badly swollen eye and cheek bone.
The Roman soldiers who scourged (tortured) Him ripped out His beard, yet is this seen in the image? No, and since was beaten so bad He was to weak to carry His cross one might wonder why the soldiers spared His face from the beating? They didn't, yet this face doesn't look like it has much damage to it.
Another point, there was no shroud around the face, only a cloth was laid on it, the shroud was around the entire rest of the body. The actual shroud would have been soaked in a lacquer like substance, myrrh, which became hard as a rock. So if this was a burial cloth, then how is it described as a shroud? The Shroud was 14' long, way long enough to cover the whole body, like a long sheet all the way over his 5"10" body as has been determined. The Shroud was placed right over the Sudarium "face cloth" which was placed over his face right after death before he had even been taken off the cross. The blood stains on the Sudarium, which had been folded and placed near by, bore the very same marks as were left on the Shroud which had been placed over the whole body. As for the body being soaked in Myrrh, you remember that he died at 3pm on Passover Day, the same evening in which he had spent the last supper with his desciples eating the Passover meal in which He actually presented himself as the Passover Lamb, according to his own words. Now, since the next Jewish Day was soon to begin at 6pm, there was barely time for the desciples to remove him from the cross (placing the face covering over his face), carrying him to the borrowed tomb, then laid him on the cloth that was available over him, rolled the large round stone over the entrance and hurried to get home before the next day began, which was the Feast of Unleavened Bread (The High Sabbath). The woman had to wait until after that Feast to do the proper preparation of his body, which included the spices, etc. After the High Sabbath, came the preparation day for the weekly Sabbath and still they couldn't return to the Tomb until it was over at 6pm and already dark according to the scriptures. Remember Jewish days begin in the evening, not like the Gentile time at Midnight. They left right away to the tomb to place the spices and various flowers, etc. with the body and found the tomb empty.
Now for a little common sense. Have you ever seen a dead person in the coffin at a wake? Their muscles in there face no longer are held in place. Yet this image does not show the face sagging as it does in a normal death.This was a body that had just been hit with the Resurrection Surge of power called the Schkinah Glory that was so powerful as to leave an imprint in the cloth. We are not dealing with any normal, common sense thinking here but the power of God Almighty raising His Only Begotton Son from the Grave. Don't you think this very evidence is so "unexplainable" that it was given as evidence of God's Word of what He said He would do and did it whether the world wants to believe it or not, the evidence is right there for all to see or dispute, as many seem to do because, in their thinking, it just wouldn't be that way, would it? And what makes this even more compelling is that the blood type on the Shroud is the very exact same one that Ron Wyatt found on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant, which God had placed in the very spot it needed to be to fulfill His purpose of the blood of the Lamb of God spilling upon the side it need to be which, in the past, had been performed by the Temple High Priest but now was done by the only One who was not only the Lamb of God but was the High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek whom presented Himself, the First Fruit to the Father on the Day of First Fruits? When Ron Wyatt had the blood tested, they told him it could be done because it couldn't possibly alive but he insisted so the Israeli team did it for him. At the end of the day, when they asked whose blood it was because it was the same as the one on the Shroud, RH A/B negative and alive, he said, "It is the blood of your Messiah." That day, these Jewish men became believers in their Messiah Yeshua.
Bottom line: This couldn't be Jesus because the beard has not been ripped out, the face appears to be that of a live person as the jowls aren't sagging, this image is of a good looking person which Jesus was not. AND, since God would know foolish and ignorant people would worship the cloth He would never allow it to survive long enough for man to make it into an idol.
As I said, his beard does show signs of some of it being ripped out on the right side. Scripture doesn't tell us the whole beard was pulled out. He shows the bruising on his face and the swollen eye nearly shut. What was captured on the Shroud is the very second that Jesus came back to life. There is even discussion of there being seen a Roman coin with it's lettering seen that was placed over the eyes. On his left eye, it appears to be right at the point of between closed and open. This is just too much to merely dismiss.
And if you don't think there are foolish and ignorant people out there let me just mention a few ... people who worship trees, frogs, statues of just about everything, animals of all kinds, the stars, the moon, the sun, and planets some that probably don't exist ... there are alien worshipers, demon, and mystcal and those who worship sex. You name it, man has perverted it.
All you have said about the vain worship of images, especially among Catholics is true: they are a people who love their relics.
As far as the Shroud being in the hands of the Roman Church, who else would be able to take it and transport it out of Jerusalem other than the very Knights Templar that spent those years pretending to guard the roads on behalf of pilgrams while they dug for the treasures of Solomon's Temple, sending it back to the European Continent? It is no mystery of where all the wealth came from that built the many castles and cathederals of Europe. No arguement on this issue is even needed.People worship Mary, and an image they think is an image of her ... even when it appears on the bite of an apple, or the side of a building, or for God's sake on a potato chip.
The article you linked to said: Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth.
It's hard to explain that from a cloth that barely cover the head they could get images of the nail prints in His hands and feet? I don't think so! That part of the cloth would have been soaked with myrrh Again, let's take a 14 foot long piece of cloth, place a 5'10" man onto it and fold the rest of it over him....plenty of cloth to do the job, eh? And the Sudarian was folded like a napkin and layed aside as if to say, " I am not finished, I've left for just a little while but I am coming back".
which would have hardened to the point that the cloth would disintegrate if flattened out. The cloth that covered the face would not be soaked in anything, and would be separate from the shroud.
My thoughts are if you're an Italian scientists, living in Italy, where most people are Catholic, you mom is Catholic, your siblings are Catholic, your co-workers are Catholic, and everyone you know is Catholic, are you going to say it isn't the image of Jesus ... and have basically everyone in the country, from your family to the barber, to everyone who lives there hate you?
Or, will you just go along to get along. If this were the burial cloth of Jesus and it is NOT, it is not holy, just as the tomb is not holy, or any artifacts we might discover is holy. Jesus is Holy.
There is no definitive proof of anything that Jesus ever touched, except the streets of the Via Dolorosa, is know by man. And that is just how Jesus wants it. Are you sure?
Perhaps worshiping the King Jesus in Spirit and Truth as He desires, just might be more important than seeking the cup He drank out of.
WhodaThunkI think you need to read the information provided by Jim Bramlett and others and if I can ever find it, I would love to have you read the Forensic Expert from the USA present his report. Gary Stearman also provided compelling evidence of the kind of flora evidence found printed in that same Shroud that came only from that part of the world in areas surrounding Jerusalem.Scientists: Relic authenticates Shroud of Turin
Exhaustive tests show sacred cloth much older than carbon-14 date
Posted: October 04, 2000
1:00 am Eastern
By Mary Jo Anderson
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com
OVIEDO, Spain -- Scientists and forensic specialists gathered in Oviedo, Spain, this week to examine an obscure relic that many have claimed authenticates the Shroud of Turin -- believed by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
The Sudarium of Oviedo is reportedly the other linen cloth found in the tomb of Christ, as described in the Gospel of John. The relic, whose dramatic history is intertwined with the Knights Templar, Moors, El Cid, saints and bishops, has been in Spain since A.D. 631.
Meanwhile, in Turin, Italy, the last pilgrims of the Jubilee Year are winding their way past the Shroud of Turin before the exhibit closes on October 23.
Verses 5-8 of the 20th chapter of "The Gospel According to St. John" records, "... he went into the tomb and saw the burial cloths there and the cloth that had covered his head, not with the burial cloths, but rolled up in a separate place." This head cloth, the sudarium, has become the focus of increasing debates over the validity of the carbon-14 tests on the Shroud of Turin. The carbon-dating tests set the age of the shroud in the 13th century, which would make the Shroud of Turin a pious icon at best, a clever fraud at worst.
However, the scientific community is divided over the shroud dates because -- with the exception of the carbon dating tests -- medical, artistic, forensic and botanical evidence favors the authenticity of the shroud of Turin as the burial cloth of Jesus.
One example of microscopic testing that supports the Shroud as authentic is the 1978 sample of dirt taken from the foot region of the burial linen. The dirt was analyzed at the Hercules Aerospace Laboratory in Salt Lake, Utah, where experts identified crystals of travertine argonite, a relatively rare form of calcite found near the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem. It is a stretch, say researchers, that a 13th century forger would have known to take the trouble to impregnate the linen with marble dust found near Golgotha in order to fool scientists 600 years later.
The debate over the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin is elevated by the new discoveries resulting from the studies on the Sudarium of Oviedo. Unlike the Shroud, the Sudarium, which covered the face of Christ for a short time before the body was wrapped in the longer burial cloth, does not carry an image of a man. Instead, the cloth, held against a face of a man who had been beaten about the head, shows a distinct facial impression and pattern of stains. The cloth is impregnated with blood and lymph stains that match the blood type on the Shroud of Turin. The pattern and measurements of stains indicate the placement of the cloth over the face.
These patterns have been extensively mapped to enable researchers to compare the markings and measurements with those of the Shroud of Turin. These measurements and calculations, digitized videos and other forensic evidence indicate that the Sudarium of Oviedo covered the same head whose image is found on the Shroud of Turin.
Part of Jewish burial custom was to cover the face of the dead, sparing the family further distress. The sudarium, from the Latin for "face cloth," would have been wrapped over the head of the crucified Christ awaiting permission from Pontius Pilate to remove the body. Stains made at that time indicate a vertical position with the head at an angle. There are stains from deep puncture wounds on the portion of the cloth covering the back of the head, consistent with those puncture marks found on the Shroud of Turin, theoretically made by the caplet of thorns.
A separate set of stains, superimposed upon the first set, was made when the crucified man was laid horizontally and lymph flowed out from the nostrils. The composition of the stains, say the Investigation Team from the Spanish Centre for Sindology, who began the first sudarium studies in 1989, is one part blood -- type AB -- and six parts pulmonary oedema fluid. This fluid is significant, say researchers, because it indicates that the man died from asphyxiation, the cause of death for victims of crucifixion.
Recently, Dr. Alan Whanger, professor emeritus of Duke University, employed his Polarized Image Overlay Technique to study correlations between the Shroud and the Sudarium. Dr. Whanger found 70 points of correlation on the front of the sudarium and 50 on the back.
"The only reasonable conclusion," says Mark Guscin, author of "The Oviedo Cloth," "is that the Sudarium of Oviedo covered the same head as that found on the Shroud of Turin." Guscin, a British scholar whose study is the only English language book on the Sudarium, told WorldNetDaily, "This can be uncomfortable for scientists with a predetermined viewpoint; I mean, the evidence grows that this cloth and the Shroud covered the same tortured man."
Guscin also points to pollen studies done by Max Frei of Switzerland. Specific pollens from Palestine are found in both relics, while the Sudarium has pollen from Egypt and Spain that is not found on the Shroud. Conversely, pollen grains from plant species indigenous to Turkey are imbedded in the Shroud, but not the Sudarium, supporting the theory of their different histories after leaving Jerusalem.
The significance of the Sudarium to the Shroud, in addition to the forensic evidence, is that the history of the Sudarium is undisputed. While the history of the Shroud is veiled in the mists of the Middle Ages, the Sudarium was a revered relic preserved from the days of the crucifixion.
A simple cloth of little value, other than that it contained the Blood of Christ, the Sudarium accompanied a presbyter named Philip and other Christians fleeing Palestine in 616 A.D. ahead of the Persian invasion. Passing through Alexandria, Egypt, and into Spain at Cartegena, the oak chest containing the Sudarium was entrusted to Leandro, bishop of Seville. In 657 it was moved to Toledo, then in 718 on to northern Spain to escape the advancing Moors.
The Sudarium was hidden in the mountains of Asturias in a cave known as Montesacro until king Alfonso II, having battled back the Moors, built a chapel in Oviedo to house it in 840 AD. The most riveting date in the Sudarium's history is March 14, 1075. On this date, King Alfonso VI, his sister and Rodrigo Diaz Vivar (El Cid) opened the chest after days of fasting. This official act of the king was recorded and the document is preserved in the Capitular Archives at the Cathedral of San Salvador in Oviedo. The King had the oak chest covered in silver and an inscription added which reads, "The Sacred Sudarium of Our Lord Jesus Christ."
Juan Ignacio Moreno, a Spanish magistrate based in Burgos, Spain, asks the critical question. "The scientific and medical studies on the Sudarium prove that it was the covering for the same man whose image is [on] the Shroud of Turin. We know that the Sudarium has been in Spain since the 600s. How, then, can the radio carbon dating claiming the Shroud is only from the 13th century be accurate?"
The Scientific Death of Jesus
Many thanks to ministry friend, Jim Bramlett for sharing this with us on Good Friday. (John Terry – Revelation Files)