Donna mentioned how the Thessalonians apparently thought they were already in The Day of the Lord...or the The Tribulation. Paul had already taught them concerning the Blessed Hope...had already taught them that when the Lord comes back, they would see their loved ones IMMEDIATELY because the dead-in-Christ would not precede those who were still alive when He returns..."therefore, comfort one another with those words." My question for Donna is this: If the Thessalonians thought they were already in the Day of the Lord, why were they upset? If they believed, as Paul had told them, that when the Lord returns they would see their loved ones and be taken up to be with the Lord...why would they be upset? Why wouldn't they be rejoicing?
I believe the Thessalonians were upset because a rumor was going around that the Day of the Lord had begun and the "Rapture" had NOT taken place yet! I believe they expected the Rapture...or the Blessed Hope...to take place BEFORE the Day of the Lord and if indeed the tribulation had started, the Rapture had not happened...thus they were upset and Paul had to straighten them out again!
Shalom,
Sherry

Sherry (19 Jan)
"Pre-trib or Post-trib...which can it be?"

I am a pre-trib believer, but everytime I read an article that "explains" a post-tribulation, I feel like I've been blown about in a windstorm. I want desperately to believe "the right thing"! Since we already know that Scripture taken out of context can render whatever conclusion we wish, just reading the text is not the proper method of rightly dividing the Word of Truth. We must acknowledge, first of all, that SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONTRADICT OTHER KNOWN TRUTHS. So, we must consider each view and formulate our doctrine based on other known truths and biblical principles. We must consider each view's strongest argument and see if each view can demonstrate what needs to be established. If anyone wants to reply, I am going to number each "argument" so that we can address that particular issue.
1.) The scriptures regarding the Second Coming and the Rapture are in some ways so similar that they are seen as occuring at the same time. Post-trib relys on this to support their position, while pre-trib see the events as two separate events separated by the 7 yr. tribulation period. So, the post-trib has to make a case for the passages being so similar as to conclude the events are identical. The pre-trib must look at the fact that although the Second Coming passages definitely refer to the end of the tribulation, clear rapture passages do not give any indication of the timing.
2.) In clear rapture passages, the Lord's coming is presented as a blessing for the saints...with no mention of any judgement, nor the setting up of His kingdom at that time. Second Advent passages DO speak of His coming to judge the nations and setting up of His kingdom. The significant difference is the rapture is NOT a coming in judgement, and the second coming IS a coming in judgement.
3.) In clear rapture passages, those gathered to the Lord will be glorified. Second Advent passages say nothing about anyone (living or dead) receiving a glorified body. The significant difference is the rapture involves resurrection of the dead saints and glorification of the living saints; while the second coming lacks any mention of resurrection and glorification of bodies. The closest it comes is in Matt. 24:31 which says, "the elect will be gathered together"; but there is no indication that this verse necessitates a glorified body.
4.) Does the "gathering of the elect" with a TRUMPET automatically make this the same gathering as the rapture? No. First because the second coming does not mention resurrecting & glorifying anyone; and second, because the rapture DOES mention those events. Also, just because a trumpet is mentioned in both Matt. 24:31 and I Thess.4:16 it doesn't mean the events are the same because if we follow the reasoning that they are the same because there is a trumpet, we'd have to also consider ALL of the trumpets mentioned. In other words, the gathering of the believers by a trumpet is not enough to prove the events are the same.
5.) Another point of difference is Matt. 24:31 appears to be in preparation of the jugement of the sheep and goats...which is also preparatory to the setting up of the kingdom. However, clear rapture passages (such as I Thess. 4) does not include this preparatory need. Lack of mention in the rapture passages of this sheep & goat judgement indicates two separate events.
6.) The conclusion after looking at the above events does not necessarily PROVE either view. BUT...they DO show one thing: IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE SECOND ADVENT AND THE RAPTURE ARE TWO SEPARATE EVENTS! So now the thing to do is both views must look at which position best handles the comparison to OTHER KNOWN TRUTHS?
7.) Pre-trib believes after the rapture the tribulation begins and the gospel is preached throughout the tribulation and many come to believe. Though many are killed, there will be some who survive. Those believers will go into the kingdom in their natural bodies. In addition, there will be some who accept the Lord when He returns at the end of the tribulation (Zech.12:10). They do not die and there is no evidence that they receive a glorified body when they receive Christ. So, there are 7 yrs. (3 1/2 yrs. for the mid-trib camp) for people to get saved prior to the kingdom and they will go into the kingdom in their natural bodies. But, in the post-trib view, IF EVERYONE WHO GOES IN THE RAPTURE IS GLORIFIED, AND THE RAPTURE OCCURS AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION, WHO IS LEFT TO ENTER THE KINGDOM IN A NATURAL BODY? All believers will have been raptured and glorified by that time. So what is an adequate answer on how is there enough time between the end of the tribulation and the rapture for people to get saved and to enter the kingdom in natural bodies?
8.) Now, how do the different views fit with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Pre-tribs and Mid-tribs can agree on this because whether there is 3 1/2 yrs. or 7 yrs. before the second coming, there is still time for the Church to be in heaven, appear at the Bema Seat judgement and attend her wedding feast. Post-trib would have to make the case that these events could occur at the second advent, but since the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom on earth, it is a problem to see the Marriage Supper at this time since THE SCENE OF THAT EVENT IS CLEARLY HEAVEN! Furthermore,, IT IS AFTER THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB THAT CHRIST COMES RIDING OUT OF HEAVEN WITH HIS ARMIES OF SAINTS to destroy the wicked at the end of the tribulation. The logical conclusion is that if the Marriage Supper is in heaven before the second advent, then the Church must have been raptured PRIOR to the end of the tribulation.
9.) And, what about the Bema Seat Judgement?... .The judgement for all believers to answer for the works that were done in our bodies, whether they be good or bad, to receive rewards and suffer loss of rewards. I Corinth. 3:12-15 & 2 Corinth.5:10 do not indicate at all there will be non-believers present. BUT, at the Matt. 25 judgement there are clearly non-believers (goats) present. A further problem for seeing the Bema Seat at the second advent or the early kingdom is that in Rev. 19:7-10 the Church is at the marriage supper wearing the wedding gown which represents the righteous deeds of the Church. The Bride has already received her recognition and rewards at the Bema Seat. PLUS, when the Lord rides out of heaven, His armies of saints are already clothed in linen, white & clean and it is clearly at the end of the tribulation to do battle with the wicked. Logically, the Bema Seat judgement has already taken place. It had to occur BEFORE the Return. almost finished :).....

10.) Up to this point pre-trib and mid-trib have logically placed the events within known-truths; while post-trib has some problems with timing of those events. Now pre-trib and mid-trib part company when dealing with the issue of God's Wrath. In I Thess.1:10 & 5:9 Paul tells believers that members of the body of Christ are exempt from God's wrath. This isn't to say we are exempt from afflictions and problems, but that God's judgemental wrath will not fall on believers. Pre-trib says believers will be raptured before God's wrath is poured out during the tribulation. Mid & Post-trib suggest God will simply protect the Church. Since the nature of the types of judgements fall indiscriminately on believers and non-believers, and many will lose their lives, are we to assume believers will not lose theirs? Another problem is since Jesus declared God will shorten those days for the elect's sake, if God's protection is upon the Church, where is the need to shorten those days? What would it matter how long the tribulation is if God is protecting the Church?
11.) Finally, just let me say this, a comparison of the Rapture doctrine with the Second Coming of Christ makes it clear that the two events are different and do not happen at the same time. The Rapture has one purpose: the removal of the Church from the world. The Second Coming does not have this purpose and is entirely different. In the Rapture, Jesus does not touch the earth, whereas in the Second Coming His feet touch the Mount of Olives. The events that follow the Second Coming are totally different than events that follow the Rapture. The Rapture is a movement from earth to heaven - the Second Coming is a movement from heaven to earth!
12.) We "run the race" to obtain "The Prize". What IS the "Prize"...is it really the Rapture for a few spiritually-superior Christians who obviously have already been "pre-judged" to determine if they are worthy enough? Does Scripture tell us the Prize is the Rapture? I don't think so. Paul tells us about "the race" and the "prize"...he says, "I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God is calling us up to heaven because of what Christ Jesus did for us." As if this wasn't clear enough, Paul then says, "For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, there are many who walk the Christian road who are really enemies of the cross of Christ...But our homeland is in heaven....And when He comes back He will take these dying bodies of ours and change them into glorious bodies like His own..." Nowhere does it say the Prize is the Rapture for a chosen few...nowhere does it say that spiritually-challenged Christians are "enemies of the cross". What it DOES say is we are all running a race (against evil), we are running along the Christian road, and there are some running along beside us that ARE enemies of the cross, nevertheless, we press toward the mark, straining for that prize WHICH IS OUR HOMELAND...HEAVEN...TO WHICH WE HAVE BEEN CALLED BECAUSE OF WHAT CHRIST JESUS HAS DONE FOR US! The Prize comes at the end of the race for all believers! We are all running...some of us can run effortlessly, some stumble, some slip & slide and fall, but we who are saved will finish the race (sooner or later, by rapture or by death) and we will win the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus....ETERNAL LIFE FOREVER WITH OUR LORD & SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST! Shalom, Sherry

The "mystery" of Matthew: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."...BUT, there is not one word in the gospel of Matthew that tells us a born-again, Bible believer is not going to get into heaven...unless you are trying to get into the "Kingdom of Heaven" as a circumcised Jew! In verses 21 & 22 some called Him "Lord, Lord" and He answered saying "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father". Not once in the context of chapters 5, 6, 7 does the word "Christian" appear directly or non- directly. As a matter of fact, there are NO CHRISTIANS in the whole chapter! In fact, there are no Christians on the whole Sermon on the Mount. To tell the truth, the term Christian doesn't even appear in the Bible until Acts, chptr. 11!
The passage in Chptr. 7 deals with Jesus telling a bunch of Jewish disciples under the law what they must do..."do the will of the Father"...and the will of the Father is:
TO BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BE SAVED!
In Matt. 5, Jesus is again telling this bunch (of Jews) "that whosoever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgement and whosoever will call his brother "Raca" (or "fool") shall be in danger of hell-fire". Now, if we are to take that as Christians, how do you explain Paul in I Corith.15:35,36 saying "Thou fool.." Paul called them fools. do you think he was afraid of going to hell?
On the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tells them to "enter in at the strait gate..." and then a little later says "I am the door: by ME if any man enter in, he shall be saved".
But there are some who are still striving to enter through the gate...when, as a believer, you are ALREADY THROUGH THE DOOR!
At the time of Matthew 5-7, the blood-atonement hadn't even been made! It wasn't even completed. As a matter of fact, at that time, the New Testament had not even been instituted. In Matthew, chapter 26, the Lord Jesus Christ INSTITUTES the New Testament when He says in verse 28, "FOR THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS". There are no "Christians" in Matthew 5, 6, 7. Nobody is "in Christ". There are no gentiles present! Christ hasn't risen from the dead and the promise of the Holy Spirit hasn't been given! THERE IS NO VERSE IN MATTHEW THAT IS DEALING WITH A BORN-AGAIN CHILD OF GOD LOSING ETERNAL SECURITY!
And stop and think of this thought: THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS NOT FOR "CHRISTIANS". Look at Matthew 8:11-12 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east & west (There are your gentiles) and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, (There are your Jews) in THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. But the children of the kingdom (they are not gentiles, but are the Christ- rejecting descendants of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob who didn't accept the Messiah) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
When the Word is "rightly divided", then can you see to whom the scriptures are talking to and about.
Matthew chptr. 12, again deals unsaved Jewish Pharisees under the law - verse 24:
"...This fellow (Jesus) doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub, the prince of the devils." This is where they were attributing Jesus' miracles to the devil instead of the Holy Spirit. Right above it in verse 21, it said, "AND IN HIS NAME SHALL THE GENTILES TRUST". The unpardonable sin was not aimed at a born-again Christian.
In Matthew 13:21,, the parable about the Sower & the Seed - are we told a person can receive the Word, believe on Christ, and then during times of persecution, fall away? Of course not. Because in verse 6 it says, THIS MAN HAS NO ROOT-NO-ROOT-NO ROOT! The man in the parable did not have a ROOT (Jesus is the root, the off-spring of David...the root out of the dry ground.) This parable is written to an unsaved Jew...NOT a Christian. In Matthew 24:13 it says "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". Does this mean if you don't endure until the end, you won't be saved? NO.
The whole passage is talking about Judean Jews! "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...let whosover readeth understand.." This does not apply to a born-again believer! It is talking about a period of time preceeding the Advent, verse 30, plainly telling you the events are talking about a period of time called the Tribulation. Nobody in Matt. 24 has been born-again...nobody is a Christian!
I gotta run at the moment...and will get back to more of this.
In Yeshua's Perfect love,
Sherry