I wish to answer this question:
Bill Petrovic (13 Dec 2007)
"Question for those who don't believe in OSAS"
How do you know at what instant in time you became unsaved again or
saved again and how do you know if you are or aren't now?
This sounds like works oriented theology.
You're constantly working to make sure you're saved all the time not knowing.
Four types of people.
1. Are not saved and know it.
2. Are not saved but think they are.
3. Are saved and know it.
4. Are saved but think they are not.
Barry Amundsen's answer:
We are saved as long as we are in Christ and keeping our
confidence in him and his finished work for us. The instant that we place our faith in any other thing, we just left off being saved. It is possible to have faith in Christ one day and then leave off trusting him the next. I don’t think it would be easy because the Holy Spirit will be after you for a while at least. Remember Jesus spoke of those who heard and received the word gladly at first but failed to become mature and produce fruit. Whether because of tribulations or persecutions or the cares of other things and this world’s problems, something makes them fall away. I know that OSAS folks say that those kind were never saved in the first place. Fair enough. But are Peter and Paul and Hebrews and James and Jude addressed to them who are not brethren or to brethren?
I don't know if you read my post before on this subject but if so then you might have seen this, which may partially answer your question as to how to know if you are or are not now:
2 Peter 1: 10, 11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do THESE THINGS, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ.
So there is a way to know for sure that we are doing right. Obviously, the first question you should ask is: What are the "these things" that Peter is saying we must do in order to be sure of our calling and election. Does it sound to you like someone who chooses not to do the "these things" may run the risk of not being elected? Yet these are brethren that Peter is writing to. Why would Peter emphasize this if there was no threat of a brother falling away from the entrance to the everlasting
kingdom
of
Jesus
once you were “saved”? Twice in this passage Peter uses the word diligence to describe how we must approach our quest if we are to be successful. This word diligence describes what you also have spelled out in your words as:
"You're constantly working to make sure you're saved all the time..."
Yes sir, that is correct. However, this does NOT mean that we are constantly trying to be good enough, as relates to keeping the law. It is not a “works oriented theology” in the way you are suggesting. It's a different kind of diligence than that. I don't even try to keep the law, because Jesus finished that for me. (I have to constantly keep after myself to not go back to the law; to be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage to that law.) Indeed, if you have gone back to trying to keep the law, then in that instant, you just became unsaved. Because you have turned loose of your confidence in Jesus and his finished work for you. You have turned to what Paul called "another gospel" and he quickly qualified it and said that there is no other gospel.
Using my university scholarship or grant idea again, once someone (Jesus) pays my way to attend this university, (become a disciple) I no longer have to try to earn enough money to afford the tuition, correct? It is a grant, (free gift) not a loan, so you do not attempt to pay that back. But my diligence is now focused in my studies and desiring to graduate with a passing grade, (bearing fruit, some thirty some sixty some one hundredfold). Do you see this?
Jesus paid our way with his blood into a relationship with God that we could
never earn or deserve. It is unmerited favor with God. But this does not mean that we are done. Rather it means that we have a chance to begin. We are called to be saints and follow him and take his yoke on us and learn from him. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. We must hear his voice and do what he instructs on a daily basis. It is a relationship that God wants with us. A joyous relationship.True worshipers worship the Father in spirit and in truth. This is what Peter is describing in his list of things to add to faith. We start with faith which God gives to each of us a measure of for free. We must add to it because faith without action is dead, being alone, as James says.
Notice how Peter keeps pointing out that salvation and all good things from God are first through his righteousness given to us but then also through our knowledge of him. 2 Peter 1:
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
So the first thing that Peter says we must add to faith is virtue. So what the heck is virtue? If you do not have virtue added to your faith you are like the ones that Jesus said cannot be his disciples. A disciple is a disciplined learner. The next thing that is to be added to virtue is knowledge. But if you skipped virtue, then you cannot add knowledge. Because Peter said that the knowledge has to be added to the virtue. In Fact you cannot add any of the rest of the list because each item is to be added to the one that came before it. You then are like those who are ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. You then are like the foolish virgins who are described as blind, their lamps are gone out and they are in darkness and cannot see afar off. These are the ones that Jesus advises to anoint their eyes with eye salve and to buy from him gold tried in the fire and to obtain the white robes to hide their nakedness etc.
What is virtue? It is what you get when you obey God in faith. It takes faith to do it but virtue is what is added to faith when you do the obedience. It can be anything that God tells you to do. But you first must hear his voice and then be a doer of his word and not a hearer only. It is as individual to you
as you are to him. Once you begin to obey God, knowledge is then able to be added to your virtue. But if you will not trust God and obey him with your life, then he allows you to go your own way and you are not teachable and you will not be able to please God no matter what else you do. You then can go to church every week like a Pharisee and never learn anything. You then can follow Jesus like the multitudes were doing but if you will not put him first then you cannot be a disciple. All because you did not let him tell you what to do and obey him. Without faith it is impossible to please him. You must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him.
The goal is to get to know God in a personal and individual way and in a trusting way. Through all of life’s troubles that you face everyday, you learn to go to God and ask him what he wants you to do in everything. That is a diligent task, because we are everyday having to die to ourselves again. But as we learn to do this we begin to see Peter’s list of things be added to our lives. And if these things are in us and abound, brother, we’re in! If we lack these things, we are blind.
Basically, there are two
different kinds of "works" that we are talking about. Works of the law (the tuition) are finished in Christ. Works of faith are what we need now and those faith works will be counted to us for righteousness.
At this point I wish to give you a practical example. I live in
Southern California
and as you know we recently went through some very bad times with wildfires. I was fearful for my own home which was in the path of one of these fires. Having been watching the news and talking with neighbors all the time for any latest reports, I was tired and getting ready to go to bed. Around one in the morning I was just about to go to bed when I decided to look one last time in the
direction of the nearest fire to see if there was any change. At last glance the sky was orange but the fire seemed distant. This time I could see flames that were much closer than the fire that I was looking for. It turned out to be yet another new fire and much closer to me than the one that I was already worried about. I was instantly fearful and began to pray even more than I was already doing. I began to get things ready in case I had to evacuate and I was not sure what to do. I began loading things and supplies into my vehicle as extremely dry and powerful winds were blowing mercilessly. Smoke was everywhere. It was a frightening experience. I have a number of pets and many things go through your head at this situation.
I submitted myself to God and asked that his will be done. I made my requests known to him. I prayed in faith that God would bind the spirits of evil behind this fire and wind and deliver us out of their hand. I asked him to give his angels charge over us and protect us and give me his spirit of peace. Then I heard God promise me that nothing bad was going to happen to me and my house. He told me to lie down and go to sleep. He told me that I was not going to have to evacuate. But my mind told me that there was every reason to be afraid. With so many fires already burning and recourses stretched to their limit, I wondered how a new fire could be stopped. I saw a fire truck move into the area through binoculars as I continued to keep an eye on it, but nevertheless, the fire seemed out of control and getting bigger. I found that I had a choice. I could believe God or I could give in to my fears and the circumstances that belied what God was telling me. I
went back and forth a couple of times before finally deciding that God has never lied to me and why would he start now? I then decided, by an act of my will to believe God and I stopped loading my car with stuff and I went to bed. I was overcome with God’s peace and somehow I knew that I would be alright. As it turned out, our nearest fire, called the Discovery Coronado Hills fire was one of the first to be contained and put out. This was especially significant since about ten years ago this same general area was burning and it spread very fast and destroyed many homes. So I knew the potential danger. Even though there were still other fires that could have threatened us, I was so happy with this first encouraging news. Later, we found that we were in one of the only areas that were never in an evacuation zone. That is mandatory, because we were in a voluntary evacuation zone for a while.
My point is that this kind of experience is what makes you get to know God and learn to trust him more and more. This pleases him and you get to know him and he knows you. Sadly, many who think they are saved do not trust God and do not know him. They may have trusted him enough to go forth at an altar call but what about since then? Do they trust him today still?
Hebrews 3:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
I'm sorry but it doesn't say we are made partakers of Christ the moment that we go forth at an altar call. Sure, I wish it did, too, it would be a lot easier. But it is an endurance race. That's not to say that you are not instantly saved in an altar call. Of course you are but you have merely begun to run. Paul used the example of a professional athelete who is temparate in all things etc. I used the example of a university student who must work diligently to pass his courses. Jesus used in one example that of an employee who is trusted with funds and is expected to invest them and gain more.
God has invested in you. He has placed in you a measure of faith. That faith is a gift that you cannot earn. But you can choose whether to add to it or not. He is asking you to add to that faith virtue and to virtue add knowledge and to knowledge add self control and to self control add endurance and to endurance add godliness and to godliness add brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness add love. If you are doing this then you are sure to be in. If these things are not in you, are you really saved?
This is my “quick” answer though I worked on it for
a long time. At first, I went all into the book of Hebrews and Romans to show from scripture where I get all this but I knew that it was just getting too difficult to explain if you do not already see it, so I kept revising it until I took all that scripture out and just went off the cuff. Why should I reprint for you here what the Bible says? Can you not read it? It is as though God purposely built this mechanism into it. For those with eyes to see, it is very clear.
I do hope this helps,
Barry Amundsen