Hi, TJ!

This could get quite colorful, couldn’t it? Your words are in red, my old words are in blue, and my current words are in teal. How’s THAT for color coordination? Now all you have to do is carry a color code sheet with you. :-)

No you misunderstood me, This is what the the pretrib view says --- that the Church dead and living are both raised before the 7 year period begins or starts. Then later the Old testament believer is then raised at the 2nd coming of Christ with and including the Martyerd tribulation saints ----- also those who are living that made it through the Great trib at the 2nd Coming of Christ will be raised. That is the pre trib view.

Right… you can’t have both an UNKNOWN day and a KNOWN day, unless His coming is in two stages, right? He’s either lying when He says that no man can know the day or hour, then turns around and tells us, in exact days when He’s returning… or He has two phases to His coming. How is “His coming” like a thief in the night if He’s told us EXACTLY when to expect Him after certain events have transpired????

Now what I was trying to say is that Paul being part of the New testament, is clearly raised at the 2nd coming of Christ. He cannot be raised both at the begining of the 7 year period and then also the end of the great tribulation if he is considered part of the Church. Well he is part of the Church if he is a apostle of Christ right ? Let me reiterate, Clearly he is resurrected at the end of the great tribulation when Jesus returns. If so then this prooves the New Testament beliver is raised at the 2nd coming.

He most definitely IS part of the Church; what makes you think he doesn’t get raised until the END of the TRIBULATION? I think he will be raised at the END of the CHURCH AGE. The Church Age is the Age of Grace; the Tribulation is a 6-fold purpose FOR THE JEWS (notice the context of these verses… he is conversing with Jews at this point, not Gentiles):

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (the Jews) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), (1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)

Also let me add I already knew that all the dead that are not of Christ are resurrected later and sent to everlasting damnation.

The dead in Christ and the dead not in Christ are two different sets of people. It is the dead in Christ who are Raptured when the living in Christ are Raptured. Revelation 20:5 tells us the rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the THOUSAND YEARS. If all the dead are raised at the same time, why would He make a distinction by saying “the REST of the dead”? And Daniel will not be raised to life until the 2^nd Coming.

Jesus raises up Old Testament believer and New testament believer at the last day. As in Paul and Daniel. Again, the Last Day of the Church Age, not the Last Day of the Trib.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Matthew 24 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Isaiah, we are told exactly who these “elect” are. They are Israel, not the Church. He will be sending His angels to gather the elect remnant that He has protected through the Trib (probably in Petra). Remember, in AD 70, He dispersed them throughout the earth for their disbelief. But when He returns, it says that ALL the Jews will be saved.

And He will lift up a standard for the nations, and will assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:12)

Daniel and the other OT Saints were not part of the Church, in fact, the Church was still a mystery to him. Remember, the Marriage of the Lamb (to His Bride, the Church) takes place in HEAVEN, and then we return WITH Him. Then the OT Saints will be raised, and after the Battle of Armageddon, they will go into the Wedding Supper with us, and the rest of the Saints from all times.

The Old Testament believers could not receive the promise until the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who is the promise, the life, and the resurrection.

The Old testament believer became redeemed through Jesus Christ with us the Church when he was crucified. Furthermore the Old testament prophets knew of the kingdom and that Christ, The Anointed One would bring it to them in the future. Also GOD told Abraham about the gospel thousands of years in advance. The Old testament believer is included with the Church.

The OT believers were counted righteous totally by their faith in the future Messiah, as they were still under the Law until Yeshua’s blood fulfilled the Law. So when they died, they died under the Law. The OT believer is NOT included with the Church. That’s why there is a distinction made between the Bride of Christ, and those who will be guests at the Wedding Feast. Going in chronological order through Revelation, the Wedding of the Lamb occurs IN HEAVEN, where the Bride makes herself ready, then Christ returns WITH His Bride. After Armageddon, the wedding feast occurs. Who are these wedding “guests” if not the OT Saints and believers from the Trib? Since we (the Church) are the Bride, You KNOW the guests are believers from somewhere, or they wouldn’t be invited to the Wedding Feast.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all (old testament believers), having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, ( the resurrection through Christ) that they without us should not be made perfect. the resurrection through Christ

2nd Corinthians 1:20 For all of God's promises have been fulfilled in him. That is why we say "Amen" when we give glory to God through Christ.

Romans 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with {Him} so that we may also be glorified with {Him.}

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I’m not sure what the point is with the verses you quoted above.

The promise is everlasting life which we as Christians inherit the kingdom of Christ, and reign with him.

Remember, the Marriage of the Lamb (to His Bride, the Church) takes place in HEAVEN, and then we return WITH Him.

Im not so sure about that one---- there is a verse that counters that. Think about this? If we were to return with him then how could he come to be glorified in his Saints, if we are already with him when he comes (2nd coming)?

It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (Jude 1:14-15)

When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. (Colossians 3:4)

so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. (1 Thessalonians 4:14)

1 Thess 1:7 - 10 When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, ------ When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

You have the wrong set of verses here, TJ. Here’s what 1 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says:

so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Then the OT Saints will be raised, and after the Battle of Armageddon, they will go into the Wedding Supper with us, and the rest of the Saints from all times. It is the dead in Christ who are Raptured when the living in Christ are Raptured.

Then Paul must be an Old testament Saint? You are saying in a sense that Paul is an Old Testament saint. Paul is not resurrected until the 2nd coming.

Of course Paul isn’t an OT saint… he is part of the Church, whom Yeshua will BRING WITH HIM (see 1 Thessalonians 4:14 above).

The writer of Ephesians, when he talks about marriage, says it is a mystery [becoming one, as a wife becomes one with her husband and vice versa], but He is speaking of Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5:32), not Christ and ALL Saints.

Yes, i read where it says the Church is a mystery. But Moses knew about Christs greater riches and that he would gain by suffering.

Hebrews 11:26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he (Moses) looked to the reward.

Also David who is an old testament believer was aware of the resurrection

Acts 2:31 David was looking into the future and predicting the Messiah's resurrection. He was saying that the Messiah would not be left among the dead and that his body would not rot in the grave.

Of course they were aware of it; the HS had imparted the wisdom to them before the Church was ever even conceived. Before Yeshua’s death & resurrection, they had only their faith to make them righteous, whereby gaining eternal life. We have the finished work of Christ’s blood to sanctify US. The OT saints were sanctified ONLY because YHWH told them what was going to occur in the future, and they believed Him, and He accounted them worthy to obtain salvation.

1 Thessalonians 4 addresses Christians, and in specific, 4:17 states “the dead IN CHRIST” shall rise first.

Read Hebrews 11:39, 40 again and 1st Corinthians 1:20. The old testament believer obtains a better resurrection together with us through Christ.

For all of God's promises have been fulfilled in him. That is why we say "Amen" when we give glory to God through Christ.

1st CRN 15:21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, Adam, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man, Christ.

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ ------ shall all be made alive.

15:23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised first; then when Christ comes back, all his people will be raised.

Verse 23 doesn’t say ALL His people will be raised; it says “Those who are Christ’s at His coming”… WE, the Church, are those who are Christ’s.

When Christ returns ( 2nd coming) all his people will be raised. NOT THAT THEY WILL BE RAISED BEFORE HE RETURNS. CLEARLY AT HIS 2ND COMING, WILL WE BE RAISED.

In response to the wrath of GOD verses you sent me. See below.

2nd Thess 1

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

[Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Absolutely NONE of these verses cancel out His promises to rescue us from the wrath to come, do they??????? Either His promise to rescue us is true, or it isn’t, and we BOTH know that He doesn’t lie, so they must be true.

These verses alone should prove to you that He is going to BRING US WITH HIM when He returns TO EARTH at the end of the Trib, so the 2^nd Coming and the Rapture can’t possibly be the same event.

When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. (Colossians 3:4)

so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus WITH all His saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. (1 Thessalonians 4:14)

Be blessed, brother! I love you, even if we DO disagree! :-)

YSIC!

Peg