Re: 2015 vs. 2016, 2017, 2018 and beyond...
Stefen Lopez's post must have reached the hearts and minds of many on Five Doves. I am saying this based on the number of responses the following day. Some of these responses may be earnest questions. Others may be merely “damage control” for their own particular pre-held end time beliefs. If so, I don’t think anything I can say would persuade them otherwise. For others who are still looking at the facts and trying to decide which end time scenario best fits those facts, I am writing this post. So now, let us reason together.
Regarding the points and questions brought up by Matt in his response:
I’ll need to respectfully disagree. In particular:
Re: Sept 2015 - 2nd Coming of Jesus article
Daniel 9:24,25 which says 7 weeks from the command to restore and build
...and that occurred on June 7, 1967 Jerusalem
George or somebody...answer this...
What "decree" went out on June 7th, 1967?
What "command" went out on the day?
What historical records record a "decree" going out on that day????????
Interesting. Can it be denied that the “6-day war”, started on June 5th, 1967? Can it be denied that at the start of this war,
Jerusalemhad not yet been restored to Israeland ’s enemies were amassing on its borders, preparing to invade? Can it be denied that during this war, Israeli leaders “decreed” a counteroffensive and the restoration of Israel Jerusalemto as a prime objective? Can it be denied that Israeli ground forces and troops were “commanded” to recapture Israel ? Or did Israeli forces capture Jerusalem without being “commanded” by their leaders to do so? Did Israeli forces go against orders and just happen to restore Jerusalem Jerusalemto without being first commanded to do so, on June 7, 1967? I don’t think so! The proof is in the pudding. We know what the leaders of Israel Israeldecreed and commanded because we know what did. And what was decreed, came to pass. Israel
Now if nothing significant to the Jewish people happened on June 7, 1967, why from that date forward do the Jewish people celebrate the anniversary of that date on the Jewish calendar? I’m sorry, they are not celebrating the date two years later of June 7, 1969 on the Jewish calendar. Wasn’t even the same date on their calendar. I’m also sorry, but
Israeldid not wait till two years later on June 7, 1969 to begin to rebuild . They began immediately after they had gained possession. Jerusalem
Okay, I’ve researched into the past regarding June 7, 1969 and found no significant event. I did find that the Knesset had authorized expenditures on various buildings in Old Jerusalem to “restore” them. But even this was issued months before June 7, 1969. And this could hardly be called Biblically significant. In the first fulfillment before Jesus Christ’s first coming, there was an event that was significant. Remember,
Jerusalemwas not under the control of . Israel did not belong to the Jews. It took the “decree” of a foreign king who ruled over Jerusalem , through the efforts of Nehemiah. Never was Jerusalem restored through recapture by the Jewish nation, to foretell the first coming of Jesus Christ. In fact Jerusalem Jerusalemnever again belonged to the nation of from the time of Daniel’s prophecy till 1967. Israel
Regarding pushing back the start of the seven sevens timing for Jesus Christ’s second coming by two years from June 7, 1967 to June 7, 1969. Or for that matter, any time in 1969. I can’t see how anything in 1969 rises to the fulfillment of any part of Daniel’s 70 weeks, except by people trying to force fit this prophetic scripture in Daniel backward from 2017 and they somehow arrive at June 7, 1969.
Of course another person’s objection that Daniel’s prophecy concerning the timing of the coming of the Messiah has already been completely fulfilled, would mean they either do not believe the Messiah is coming again, or that Daniel’s prophecy regarding the coming of the Messiah does not apply to His second coming. Either way, I don’t agree.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25
Now regarding September 23, 2015 for the Second coming. I’ve been looking earnestly at this date since 2003. I know a lot of people in the past have said that if one could know the date of the Second coming, one could just count back seven years or 2520 days and we would see the man known as the lawless one confirming his “binding” agreement with “many”. If the “many” will put “the lawless one” in power, then he must have promised to do something for them, like bring peace.
Although Daniel 9:27 doesn’t speak of peace:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27
Daniel 8:25 does:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Daniel 8:25
What we also know, is this “lawless one”, will be making a binding agreement or “covenant” with “many”. This type of agreement, not one to one, but one to many, where many people would need to cast their lots, or vote, was fairly uncommon in the times of Daniel. But today we refer to it as the “republican” or “representative” process coupled with the “democratic” process that originally selects these “representatives”. Many people in “free” countries “elect” one person to “represent” them instead of personally voting on everything themselves.
Now, agreed, this “lawless one” could not be elected to just any position. This person would have to be elected to a position qualifying as the book of Daniel’s last ruler on earth, the ruler of iron and clay, well at least the ruler of iron amongst the clay.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:41-44
Which means the nations of the earth at the end of this age will be divided. Some of them will be strong. Some of them will be weak. He cannot be the leader of all nations at the same time, or even all of the strong nations made of iron at the same time. But he can be the leader of the strongest nation in the end times. And he can have the title of leader of most of the nations in the end times, even though they have their own leaders. For just as the feet were separated into iron and clay, so will the world, into strong and weak, communist and free. He will be known as the leader of the “free” world.
What we also know, is the “lawless one” will never relinquish his power on his own, once elected by the “many”. The power of the lawless one will only end at the end of these seven prophetic years, when he is destroyed by the brilliance of the second coming the real Messiah. The lawless one will never turn over his power by choice, but only through the glorious return of Jesus Christ. This glorious return will be on Yom Kippur. Whether or not you believe Yom Kippur in 2015, September 23rd, is when this will happen, know that Jesus Christ will return at the Head of the Year, the 10th day of the 7th month, the most Holy day of the whole year, the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur.
Which is why I really don’t understand June 7, 1969. Counting backward from Yom Kippur 2017, September 30th, seven sevens of prophetic (360-day) years one arrives at June 14, 1969, not June 7, 1969. Both June 7th and 14th, 1969 are Saturdays although I also didn’t understand why counts of prophetic years need to start on Saturday instead of Wednesday. There is a count of seven sevens of days that starts on First Fruits, which for many “Christians” is always a Sunday, which extends to Pentecost, making it also, always a Sunday. But this tradition extends back to “Sun Day” worship instituted by
over “Christianity” when they made it the state religion. The Hebrew calendar continues to celebrate Pentecost (Shavuot) on Sivan 6, regardless of the day of the week. Without this, I still haven’t heard a rational to applying a count starting on Saturday or Sunday, for days, to years. Rome
Now, because of the events that transpired exactly seven prophetic years before Yom Kippur, 2015, namely the apparent revealing of the lawless one, to the day, there are those, myself included, that are amazed, awed, and afraid how God is fulfilling His word. But then the fear or the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Regarding the timing of the Rapture. There are those who call the 7 years preceding the return of Jesus Christ as the “Day of God’s Wrath” and then announce that God’s people will not suffer God’s wrath. If both these statements were true, that would mean that the Rapture will happen prior to the 7 years preceding the return of Jesus Christ. And, of course, this would give reason to look on 2017 favorably.
There are others who see parallels between the seven years preceding the return of Jesus Christ and the story of Joseph and his brothers with the seven years of famine in
. Using this analogy, one then can ask whether Egypt was saved before the seven years of famine started. There are many parallels between Israel and the Church. Remember the person named Israel , the name given him by God, who had been named by his earthly father as Jacob, usurper? Israel
Ron Reese is currently doing a series on Five Doves where he is looking at this fall for being the season of the Rapture because it is two years into the final seven years. To me, one of his strongest reasons is the fact that the man named
went through two years of famine before being saved by the one he loved more than any of his other sons, the son he had mourned in his death, and now was alive. And the one who now was saving all Of Israel and his children. Israel
Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. Genesis 45:5-7
What a picture of the Rapture!