Mecha (10 Aug 2004)
"RE: Tim and the RAPTURE"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*******************************************************************************
Hi:
Recently I came across a post-trib site that claims a pre-trib rapture is
not possible. While I disagree on many points in an email, these questions
were posed to me. My original email to the Matt 24 question is at the
bottom; however, I wondered if you have an answer to these questions he
posed:
You find a separation between the Resurrection at the Second Coming and the
Rapture, some time before that?
The gathering in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the gathering in Matthew
24:30-31 seems to me to be very similar in description.Similarities:
Jesus is in the clouds of the sky
At a trumpet call
Gathering of believers
Dead - heaven
Living - earthHow do you know one is different from the other? Couldn't they be the same
event?How do you know the saints have been raptured before the Second Coming? Is
there anywhere in Scripture that states that?*******************************************************************************
Hi Tim,
I read your postActually 1 Thess doesn't match Matthew 24 good at all when you take into
account Revelation 19 which is the Return of Jesus.The truth is, Matthew 24, Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 39 all tell the same
story.
It is striking how similar they are in terms of His Return and the
"gathering of the elect."Revelation was for Christian believers and that is why you do not see any
gathering.
Matthew 24 was to Jewish believers who knew the term "elect" to mean them
from Isaiah were it is said - "Israel My Elect"
To further emphasize this we have Ezekiel 39 where the angels go out and
gather "ALL OF ISRAEL" from the nations back to the Land. This happens
AFTER the Messiah comes and destroys the armies gathered against Jerusalem.
With the dead bodies comes a shout from the Arch Angel to the birds of the
air (both in Ezekiel and Revelation) to come to the feast that the Lord has
provided them. In Matthew 24 we get an odd comment - Where the carcass is
you shall find the eagles gathered together.The three sections are sooo similar that it can hardly be a coincidence.
But rather God telling us what it is - Him calling all of Israel back and
restoring them.In Jeremiah we get the coming of the Mesiah first and then the House of
Israel shall be with the House of Judah and they will say nothing of the ark
of the covenant nor will they remember it. Because the Lord will be with
them and reign in Jerusalem. I am paraphrasing because I do not have my
bible in front of me.But none the less. The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 is none other
than the promise of the restoration of Israel fully being completed as
prophesied in Ezekiel 39. And is not as some call the Post Trib rapture.God Bless
Mecha
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Marilyn Agee
Hi:
I'd like to add my opinion to this discussion.
> > Tim: The gathering in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the gathering in Matthew
24:30-31 seems to me to be very similar in description.
They are not the same, however. In 1 Thess. 4:16, the first "trump of God" sounds. That is the Pre-Trib Rapture. In I Cor. 15:51,52, we read of the "last trump" of God, the 2nd Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture.
Mt. 24:31 is about the Bride group that was caught up to Heaven before the Tribulation. Re the Day of God's Wrath, when the sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky, it says, "And he shall send his ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."
Mt. 24:31 doesn't mention anyone getting gathered from the Earth. The Bride group is already in Heaven. They arrived in Heaven before the Tribulation began. On the Day of God's Wrath, but before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 hit at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5), the Bride is gathered to the "general assembly...in HEAVEN" (Heb. 12:23).
Why is the Bride group in Heaven called to the general assembly on the Day of God's Wrath? In Heaven, this is Christ's coronation day, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the day all saints get their rewards.
However, the Tribulation saints are still on Earth. They must be called to the general assembly in Heaven too. Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those that were caught up at the beginning of the Tribulation).
Rev. 11:17,18 says, "We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
The Day of God's Wrath is not the Day of the Second Advent. There are 7 Jewish months between the two. The worldwide earthquake of Eze. 38:18-20 happens on the Day of God's Wrath. That's when his fury comes up in his face. For 7 months afterward, the Jews bury the dead in Israel to cleanse the land so Christ can return in glory. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be GLORIFIED, saith the Lord GOD." Christ will return in glory at the Second Advent. It will be in a Jewish Leap Year, when the 13th month is added. That's the only time that there can be 7 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1. I think the year will be 5771 (2010/2011).
I believe the Day of God's Wrath will be on Tishri 1, the first day of the former rain. The Second Advent will be on the following Nisan 1, the first day of the latter rain. Hos. 6:3 says, " the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."
There is no other catching up of saints after the Day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. All rewards are handed out to saints, great or small, on that day, 7 months before the Second Advent.
> > Tim: You find a separation between the Resurrection at the Second Coming and the
Rapture, some time before that?
What "Resurrection at the Second Coming "?
When all the saints follow Christ to Earth, the Pre-Trib saints will have been in Heaven 7 years, the Pre-Wrath saints 7 months, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture is the "LAST TRUMP" (I Cor. 15:51,52). Rev. 19:14 says, "And the armies (plural) which were (past tense) IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Those of the "first resurrection" "shall reign with him (Christ) a thousand years" (Rev. 20:5.6). His 1000-year reign starts at the "general assembly" in Heaven on the Day of God's Wrath. That is the "LAST TRUMP" (I Cor. 15:51,52) of the first resurrection. There is no other. After the Second Advent, the sheep and goats are judged. They are the living ones that survive God's Wrath on Earth. They are not resurrected.
Mt. 25:31-34 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (on Earth): And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The millennial kingdom starts on Tishri 1. The Judgment of Christ takes place that day. The sheep and goats are judged 7 months later, at the Judgment of the Nations, after the Second Advent on Nisan 1
When the Satan-possessed False Prophet comes to "his end" (i.e., is deposed from office; Dan. 11:45), it will be the Day of God's Wrath. "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:1,2).
The "LAST TRUMP" calls up the Tribulation saints. That is the end of the first resurrection. That door is closed 7 months before the Second Advent. I can't see a resurrection at the Second Advent.
> > Mesha: In Matthew 24 we get an odd comment - Where the carcass is
you shall find the eagles gathered together.
Mt. 24:28 says, "For wheresoever the carcase (ptoma, body, i.e., Body of Christ) is (at the 'general assembly' in Heaven, Heb. 12:23), there will the EAGLES (Tribulation saints) be gathered together."
> > Mesha: The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 is none other
than the promise of the restoration of Israel fully being completed as
prophesied in Ezekiel 39. And is not as some call the Post Trib rapture.
Isa. 40:31 says, "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall MOUNT UP WITH WINGS AS EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Only in Heaven could they "run, and not be weary." Mounting up with wings represents the Pre-Wrath Rapture that precedes the Second Advent by 7 months.
Agape, Marilyn
mjagee@pe.net
http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee