Thought I'd give an answer to the question posed by Dianna Talsma's post "the slipping zodiac":http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2005/diannet322-2.htm
Which also touches on the same subject as Marilyn Agee's Pro/Con 1193, the section titled:
Ted Porter's reply, Re: Scoffers on May 5, 2005, 9:41:02 PM +/- 2 seconds Universal Time
http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/procon1193.htmlWhich I hadn't had time to respond to, but since Dianne had asked a similar question, thought I better address it.
First I'd like to say that I thought Marilyn had an excellent brief summary of the Zodiac as used from Adam on down through the Hebrews. Many people are surprised that the zodiac is referred to in the Bible. I'd like to add that Job makes reference to several constellations by name.
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? Job 38:31-33
And Isaiah mentions them in passing:
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isaiah 13:10
However, Marilyn also touches on the same subject as Diane's question:
> I'm not using the Tropical Zodiac. As I understand it, the Tropical is the one that is off by one sign, or one month, that is used by astrologers.
Based on the research I've done on this, the Tropical Zodiac is what is now used as the standard coordinate system for modern Astronomy. For history, it appears that the Babylonians used sidereal astrology/astronomy though in the 5th century BC but by the 2nd century BC the Greeks were using the Tropical Zodiac.
The Tropical Zodiac always starts with Aries the Lamb, the first sign of the Zodiac, assigned to what was the beginning of the first month in many ancient cultures, the Spring Equinox, now our March 20th/21st. The Sidereal Zodiac does not always start on the same day each year as its start is constantly slipping away from the Spring Equinox. The period of revolution which is known as the precession of the equinoxes, in other words how long it takes the Sidereal Zodiac to slip from the Spring Equinox all the way around the solar year through the Fall Equinox and then back to the Spring Equinox is probably around 24000 years. That is based on the fact that although one can extrapolate the current sun velocity to come up with a period of 25770 years, the current velocity is also currently increasing, much like the earth does after it passes a solstice but before an equinox, to where the period is thought to be around 24000 years.
http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Papers/v02n01a/v02n01a.pdf
I realize it is a matter of perspective whether it is the Tropical Zodiac that is is off by one sign versus the Sidereal Zodiac or the Sidereal Zodiac that is off by one sign from the Tropical Zodiac. The bottom line is they matched around 2000 years ago. However 2000 years before that they were off by one sign the other way and 2000 years in the future they will be 2 signs off.
In regard to the Tropical Zodaic being the one that is used by astrologers, it all depends on the astrologer. From searching the internet I found that it is true that some Astologers do use the Tropical Zodiac. The rest of the Astrologers though use instead the Sidereal Zodiac. The Tropical is mainly used by Astrologers in Western countries while the Sidereal Zodiac is used mainly in most Eastern Countries. As the Eastern Coutries are much more populous along with being more open to the occult, although sadly Western Countries don't appear that far behind in that regard, one would be able to accurately state that more astrologers overall use the Sidereal Zodiac. However, just based on the fact that most Astrologers use the Sidereal Zodiac, albeit not that much in the Western Countries, does not by itself make it wrong, and vice-versa.
There are references on the internet that state that when the Eastern Astrologers first started making inroads in the West in the 1930's they marketed Sidereal based Astrology by claiming that the Tropical Zodiac was off a sign. However it could just as easily, probably even more so be argued that the Sidereal instead off.
While the Zodiac is a circle that surrounds the earth with constellations which one could say doesn't have a beginning or an end, the beginning constellation for the Tropical Zodiac anyway is Aries and it is tied to what was the beginning month at the Spring Equinox, which for the lunar/solar calendar of the Hebrews is associated with Nisan. Likewise the circle around the earth was divided into 360 degrees with each degree being roughly one day and each 30 degrees roughly one month, one moon, and one constellation. Likewise it is said that each of the 12 tribes of Israel held as an ensign a different constellation and it is held by some that the first son, Reuben held the first ensign Aries, the Ram, which corresponded to the first month, Nisan. Passover, the exact middle of the first month, was in the exact middle of the sign of Aries the Lamb of God which took away the sins of the earth. The Israelites killed the lamb each year on the eve before Passover. This is also when Jesus Christ, the lamb of God, was crucified.
Personally, I think that Joseph should be recognized as the first son as he was the first son of promise just like Isaac, from the wife that was promised to Israel/Jacob, and that Israel loved, namely Rachel. And Joseph received a double portion as compared to the other tribes through his sons Ephraim and Manasseh. Those two sons should represent the two comings of Jesus Christ, first as a lamb as in Aries, at His Passion, and second as a bull as in Taures, when He comes in Power at the Rapture.
Following then from the 2nd Chapter of Numbers we start out with the children of Promise called the Camp of Ephraim in the West made up of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Benjamin, from Rachel which would correspond to Aries, Taurus, and Gemini. The signs of Aries and Taurus were already covered as being the dual natures of Christ in His two comings. The center zodiac sign is Taurus and this seems to correspond with the overall name being Ephraim. Gemini is the picture of the Bride of Christ, the Church being united in Marriage with the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Just as Christ died to give birth to the Church, Rachel died to give birth to Benjamin.
Next let's go to the camp of Dan in the North, as Israel's enemies come from the North made up of Dan, Asher, and Naphtali from Bilhah, Zilpah, and again Bilhah. Many hold that the antichrist will be from the tribe of Dan. This corresponds to the signs of Sagittarius, a half man, half beast as in the antichrist, possessed, Scorpio, the scorpion, which will be like the plagues during the Tribulation when men will be stung as if by scorpions, and Libra which are scales representing judgement when Christ returns in Glory at the end of the tribulation to execute judgement and establish His millennial kingdom. Again the center zodiac sign of Scorpio seems to best correspond with the overall name being Dan.
Next let's go to the camp of Judah in the East, made up of Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun. The center zodiac sign of Leo the lion again corresponds to the Lion of Judah, the overall name of the camp. The three signs are Cancer the crab, Leo the Lion, being Judah, and Virgo the virgin that gives birth to Immanuel.
Next let's go to the camp of Reuben in the South, made of Reuben, Simeon, and Gad. The three signs are Capricorn, the Goat, Aquarius, the Waterman, and Pisces, the fish. Again, the center sign of Aquarius corresponds to the Reuben, the overall name of the camp. Reuben was said to be unstable like running water and water normally flows to the South on the globe.
While there have been many schemes made by people to assign the 12 zodiac signs to the 12 tribes as the exact knowledge of their ensigns appears to have been lost, I admit the above assignment may well be unique. Note that the descriptions went clockwise from West to North to East to South however the Zodiac is laid out in order starting from the West camp to the East camp to the North and then to the South.
Something that is confusing to some is the fact that each constellation in the sky which has the same name as the zodiac do not account for exactly one twelth of the ecliptic or sky view which would be 30 degrees or 30.44 days. While there may be some disagreement where a constellation starts and stops, a generalized reference has Aries taking up around 24.66 degrees or 25 days while Taurus takes up 36.49 degrees or 37 days. Scorpio only takes up 6.9 degrees or 7 days. Ophichchus which is not even one of the 12 zodiac symbols takes up 17.75 degrees or 18 days, which could be an allusion to the tribe of Levi which is not considered any longer among the 12 tribes of Israel since the tribe of Joseph split in two. The ecliptic is still split evenly among the 12 zodiac signs even though they do not correspond with the size of each constellation just as the land of Israel was split evenly among the 12 tribes of Israel even though each tribe had a different number of people.
The concept of Sidereal can also be confusing. It is basically viewing events in relation to the constellations. The sidereal zodiac starting time is in relation to keeping the location of the constellations constant which causes the seasons to slip.
While we go by there being around 365 1/4 days in the solar year, based on what is called "sidereal time" there are 366 1/4 days in a year. Which one is right? Well technically they are both right. We observe from earth 365 1/4 night/day cycles of the earth revolving as it goes around the sun. However by going around the sun one time in a circle it also completed another night/day cycle which makes 366 1/4 total night/day cycles. However, it is almost always more useful to use 365 1/4 days per year because that is what we actually observe on earth.
The sidereal time caused by the precession of the equinoxes is actually the same phenomena as the earth example above, but this time applied to the sun. However it seems this fact isn't that well understood even among the scientific community. The paper linked above gives a pretty good scientific explanation but may be too technical for some. I had figured out a way to explain the principle of this precession before reading the paper so I'll try to put this in layman's terms.
The earth is tilted and spinning on its axis which means that part of the earth because of its curvature gets more direct sunlight and part gets more spread out sunlight. The part that gets more spread out sunlight, (less direct sunlight) will be cold as in winter while the other hemisphere that gets more direct sunlight will at the same time be warmer and be having summer. This tilt stays the same at all times as the earth goes around the sun. At one time it was proposed that the precession of the equinoxes, that is the fact that the equinoxes will occur later in the year in reference to the constellations, was caused by a slightly changing tilt. However, if this were true then the start of the seasons as well would occur later in the year as they are controlled by the tilt.
Now lets look at the real cause which if the sun is viewed as stationary can be said to be the spinning or rotating of our elliptical orbit around the sun. This spin takes around 24000 years to occur once. But the sun isn't stationary. It is hurtling through space. In fact this is what causes the earth's elliptical orbit. As the sun is hurtling through space the earth is revolving around it. The earth is actually closest to the sun in its elliptical orbit during the northern hemisphere's Winter. Remember it is how spread out the sunlight is that hits the earth that determines temperature a lot more for us than our different distances to the sun. At the Northern Hemisphere's Winter Solstice the earth has put itself directly in front of where the sun is hurtling through space. If one drew a line from the sun through the earth at our Winter Solstice this would be the exact direction the sun is hurtling through space.
Now at the Spring Equinox one can draw another line from the earth through the sun and into a constellation. We would expect that if the month of Nisan began around the Spring Equinox 2000 years ago then at the middle of Nisan on Passover this line would fall into the constellation Aries. This is because now the constellation Aries has the sun entering it as observed from the earth on April 19th and leaving on May 13th. (It should be noted that the Sun does not actually enter or leave any constellation. It is really the earth that is moving around the sun which makes the sun appear to be entering or leaving a constellation.)
For reference in 2005 the tropical zodiac has Aries in from Mar 21st to Apr 20th while the Sidereal has Aries from April 14th to May 14th. For our lifetime anyway, all of these dates are basically within a day. So what about the calculated Jewish calendar and Passover? Wouldn't we expect Aries to have slipped out to Pisces from what it was when Christ was born? Well basically we would expect it to have slipped 24 days. The Sun being in the constellation of Pisces is from March 12th to April 18th. Since Pisces the fish is the sign of the Church and the sign made by the Church between believers, one would expect the Sun to be in the sign of Pisces at this time. For Passover dates (Nisan 15) we have the Sun in:
2000 - April 20 - Aries
2001 - April 8 - Pisces
2002 - March 28 - Pisces
2003 - April 17 - Pisces
2004 - April 6 - Pisces
2005 - April 24 - Aries
2006 - April 13 - Pisces
2007 - April 3 - Pisces
2008 - April 20 - Aries
2009 - April 9 - Pisces
2010 - March 30 - PiscesSo 3 out of the 10 years Passover is after April 19 or in Aries. If instead of a 24 day slippage we have a full 30 day slippage then all of the Passovers would be in the Pisces. But back to the precession of the equinoxes.
If the sun was traveling in a straight line hurtling through space then everytime a line was drawn from the Spring Equinox through the sun into a constellation it would basically hit the same place on the same constellation throughout time. However it doesn't. The reason is the sun is revolving itself around a mass in space that is curving the sun's path. As the Sun curves through space it throws the Northern Hemisphere Summer Solstice tail out like a comet to also indicate the direction the sun is going by drawing a line from the Summer Solstice through the sun. This tail gets thrown out as the Sun goes around this mass in space and the line through the equinoxes preceeds throughout the constellations making a complete revolution in the same time it takes the sun to complete one revolution around the mass in space. (This is a simplification as the mass in space is also revolving around our Sun in direct proportion to its ratio of mass to our Sun's.) The easiest way to visualize this is to just take the elliptical orbit of the earth around the Sun and start rotating it and observe the different constellations that the sun would appear to be in as seen from earth as the elliptical orbit itself rotates.
To sum this all up, the observed position of the sun in the constellations from earth along with the Sidereal zodiac is slipping versus the Gregorian calendar, the Hebrew Calendar, the seasons, and the Tropical zodiac. This slippage amounts to one year every 24000 years which is 365.24 days per 24000 years or one day every 66 years or 30 days every 1971 years (24000 years * 30 days / 365.242 days = 1971.296). Some people may have noted that this is the same exact number as 2000 prophetic years (2000 years * 360 day / 365.242 days = 1971.296). This is along the same line of inference that the Sidereal year is slipping versus the length of the solar year which is one day every 365.242 days. The difference between the Sidereal zodiac and the Tropical zodiac are just different frames of reference though. Since I personally do calculations with frames of reference with the earth to the Sun, I have not found much application for either the Sidereal zodiac or the Sidereal year.
Shalom.
Ted Porter
4/9/05P.S. to Marilyn's followup question:
> > It is said that one of the charges which was considered a very serious charge brought up against Jesus was that he ate of the Paschal lamb the day before Passover instead of Passover. It is said that in his defense the Galilean's were able to produce written documentation that they were allowed to eat of the Paschal lamb the day before. It is conjectured that this written documentation were the solar calendar tables of the Essenes. That's interesting. I'd like to know more about that. I hope you can steer me in the right direction.Reply: I couldn't find my original source but I googled "Essenes day before Passover" and found:
http://www.bibarch.com/Articles/OpeningEvents.htm
There are probably many other sources as well.