I appreciate all the comments to the "Are Babies in Heaven?" posts:http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/tedp415.htm
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/tedp416.htmWhich the ones I saw were:
Tripp071: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/tripp416.htm
Deborah: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/deborah416-1.htm
David Cambell: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/davidc417.htm
Beverly Dike: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/beverlyd419.htm
Paul Wilson: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2004/paulw419.htmHopefully I didn't miss any. And hopefully I can answer everyone's questions or concerns. As Iron sharpens Iron:
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17
To recap the position taken in the original two posts using analogies this time. The position is Yes, there are babies in heaven but No, not all babies go to heaven. While it is through grace, unmerited favor, they go, it is still the same grace that is extended towards believers. And as such, God tells us to whom it is extended. A believing parent saves the fruit of their seed or womb unto heaven should that fruit die young, from conception till they are no longer under the headship of their parent which is usually around their 20th year or their 20th birthday. At which point the parent is no longer responsible for that child and the child is no longer accountable to the parent. (Notice that one's 20th year of life is one year shy of one's 20th birthday as we currently count years.)
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. I Corinthians 7:14
After contemplation on this position, I've worked out a few more details in prayer and Bible study to hopefully help flesh out questions that may come up. Such as:
If a child of a believing parent makes a confession of faith and becomes a follower of Jesus Christ before their 20th year, then that child when he or she looses the protective covering of their parent which even today is around their 20th year, does not also loose the protective covering of the Holy Spirit. They are bound for heaven should they die. If they have not become a believer, then they are not bound for heaven.
In addition, there are other circumstances that can be put forth.
When a parent is saved after a child has been conceived, that child falling under the protective covering of that parent is saved or predestined for salvation at the moment that parent believes.
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Acts 11:14
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:30-31
This and verses like it of the whole household being saved when only the head of the household believed just did not make any sense to me 30 years ago as there must have been children involved that were too young to understand the concept of believing in Jesus Christ to forgive their sins. My thoughts were that the children had never repented so how in the world could they be saved? However, let's look at the two signs of the last days, the sign of Noah and the sign of Lot. Noah was saved along with all His family, making a total of 8, when the whole rest of the world was wiped out by the flood. Yet we know that not all his family was righteous. In fact, Ham looked upon his father's nakedness in the manner of the fallen world that had been destroyed, and was subsequently cursed by Noah. Likewise, Lot's family were not righteous even though all were offered to be saved from destruction. Of the possible 6 total who were offered salvation, only 3 accepted and didn't look back. Lot's two daughter's husbands who had kept their wives virgins, when offered the chance to be saved, refused. And Lot's wife, although following her husband out of the city, looked back longingly to what she had left, and was turned to salt. And Lot's two daughters were not followers of the true God. They subsequently each got Lot drunk and slept with him. Their decendants were a cursed people. The message here is God is in the business of saving the whole family even though it is only the head of the household that believed. It is also apparent that the members of the family can later reject that salvation and the grace they found themselves in, just as the Angels can reject the salvation they found themselves in. And just as the Angels that were under leadership of Michael when following their leader are already saved, those Angels that followed the leadership of Lucifer were condemned and a special place of torment called hell was prepared for them. All, just for following their leader because that leader strayed outside the will of God and would set himself up above God.
For another analogy. If the parents with their whole household after they have been saved out of Egypt (the world), refuse later to enter the promised land (heaven) because of their unbelief, they will die in their unbelief (the wilderness). But their children, those who are not yet in their 20th year, do not have to share the same fate, but may enter into the promised land (heaven).
And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho. Joshua 6:25
Some may still think it's not fair unless all babies who die should go to heaven, yet it is also written:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exodus 20:5
Does this sound fair to punish the CHILDREN unto the third and fourth generation, for the sins of the fathers? If it doesn't, then your assessment of what is fair does not line up with God's and your assessment is the one that needs to change for God is not only fair but he also does not change or lie.
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exodus 34:7
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18
Now, to address some of the comments and issues raised:
Tripp071's post is not in disagreement with the original posts since we both believe there are babies in Heaven. And her Grandmother being a Christian would mean that the lost child would also be in Heaven as her Grandmother believed.
Deborah's comment about David being a prophet of God and knowing He will see His child is also not in disagreement as again, David, as a believer, would have the fruit of His loins also in Heaven. I do have to disagree though with the statement that an aborted baby is sinless. No one is sinless according to the Bible, except Jesus Christ who actually is God, who without an earthly father was the only one born genetically without a sin nature and could legitimately not have the sins of the fathers visited upon him to the third and fourth generation.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23
This verse doesn't say that all have sinned except those too young to know better. Or that one has to act out a sin before it is considered sin by God. For Jesus said:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:27-29
Let's also look at the Bible verses:
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
There are many Bible verses that say that you must become like a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven. You must have faith like a child. In fact, you must be born....again, like a child. It is not saying that you must be a child, or else no adult could be saved. Or that the kingdom of heaven is composed of physically, just little children.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
This is stating that the guardian angels of these little children do always behold the face of Father God. It does not state that these little children are in heaven, just their guardian angels.
In fact we, as Christians, are addressed as little children in the Bible:
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. I John 3:7
Regarding David Cambell's post:
Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou
restrain.Psalm 76:10
Regarding the abortion hollocost: SURELY THE WRATH OF MAN (abortionist)
SHALL PRAISE THEE (the babies would end up in heaven)!Also, Jesus said:
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you,
That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is
in heaven.
Matthew 18:10
This was a general statement, not one we can assume was said about saved
parents.
Psalm 76:10 is a general statement applying to the wrath of man which could just as well mean anyone who murders someone else. And that would mean according to this pattern of interpretation, that whosoever gets murdered, no matter if they are avowed athiests or murderer themselves, would end up in heaven. And I cannot find any backup for this in the Bible.Matthew 18:10 is talking about some children who have guardian angels. Personally I do not believe that nonbelievers childrens have guardian angels because why would they have asked God to provide them? Still even, if every child has a guardian angel regardless of having saved parents, it does not follow that just because these guardian angels behold the face of God that every child goes to heaven should they die. Does it?
Regarding Beverly Dike's post. Maybe this person really did visit heaven and hell. I would have thought it would have been one or the other. Or we cannot discount that this could be demonically induced, especially if it doesn't line up with scripture. But I haven't read it so would not know. Regardless, if it lines up with the Bible we can believe it. If it doesn't, it must be rejected. But we can't prove anything outside of the Bible. What is said doesn't really disagree with my position though, as there would be babies in heaven and this doesn't address under what circumstances they arrived. I tend to like Dr. Eby's description of a place prepared for us for before the Judgement day.
In regard to Paul Wilsons question, "Does grace triumph over law"? I think it does.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6:8
Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD and his whole household, including his grown children and their wives were saved. Every other single living human being was killed in the flood. We also know that:
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Romans 2:12
So they perish with or without the law.
---------
Other issues:
Adoption
This reminded me first of Nature vs. Nurture. What about the child from unbelieving natural parents who is adopted into a family that at least one of the parents is a believer? Isn't it true that God adopts us into His family? But what about the fact that God also visits the sins of the father unto the 3rd and 4th generation? This is genetic and can't be avoided. I also know the way it plays out in the families I've known personally that have adopted and had natural kids at the same time, that the heartaches and troubles invariably come from the adopted children. What gives? To quote an old commercial, it appears that "you can't fool mother nature". The unbelieving natural parents still appear to hold sway regarding the nature of the children. Well, more precisely, the sins of the father are passed on regardless of whether they are adopted.Water Immersion
As Christians we know that water immersion doesn't save, yet it is an outward sign that believers do of their faith, or at least are commanded to do. It also appears that the whole household in the Bible is immersed.And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. Acts 16:15
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. I Corinthians 1:16
Which there is much controversy regarding only doing "Believer's Immersion". This post would tend to suggest that there is nothing wrong with the parents having their children immersed before they have made a confession of faith, although I know this is not the practice in the Protestant churches which I'm familiar.
Baby Nephilum
During "Noah's" flood when the Adults and baby Nephilum were wiped out, did the baby Nephilum end up in heaven? Did the children of any unbelieving parents that were also killed in the flood for that matter end up in heaven? I don't think so.
-Shalom!