Gina, you asked, might we be "in the trib" already? You can find your own conclusion by answering the following questions.......the answers I provided are my opinion.1) What is the "tribulation" also specifically known as?
ANSWER: The Time of Jacob's Trouble2) Doesn't this show that the period we refer to as the "tribulation" (aka Jacob's Trouble) pertains to ISRAEL?
ANSWER: Yes. The doctrinal confusion people get into happens when they decide the church has replaced Israel....they usurp the promises, and even the problems, related to Israel and Israel alone. However, God has NOT "replaced"
Israel ! He is again turning His attention to Israel to bring about her national redemption....as promised. Israel's clock began ticking again at the start of the 70th Week / Jacob's Trouble ...and it has begun again to fulfill the TIME DETERMINED FOR THY (Daniel's) PEOPLE. The Time of Jacob's Trouble will run concurrently with the prophetic 70th Week of Daniel....but those days of the 70th week CANNOT, and will not, be shortened. They WILL BE FULFILLED just as the previous 69 weeks were. This proves that the so-called 7 yr tribulation cannot be the same as the 70th Week!....for those days that are shortened cannot be those of the 70th Week. (We'll get to the shortened days below.)To further solidify the connection between the nation of Israel with the name of Jacob, and to further show that this typology identifies the entity with whom God is dealing during the 70th Week of Daniel and the time period known as Jacob's Trouble....ask yourself the next question.........
3) Isn't the physical nation of Israel called "Jacob" when he is out of favor with
God....or in other words, IN UNBELIEF?
ANSWER: Yes.4) Is the nation of Israel today back in the land.....IN UNBELIEF?
ANSWER: Yes. More than 85% of Israelis are SECULAR - non-religious - do
not believe or trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; nor are
they looking for the Messiah. For them, being an Israeli Jew is a
national identity, not a religion.Now...as for seeing if we are in the time of Jacob's Trouble now, you have to see that today Israel is "out of God's favor" due to the UNBELIEF of the nation, and also in the giving up of the land which He has returned them to; and if you can see the parallel to the historical nation of Israel being called Jacob, and that "Jacob will be saved out of his trouble" (at the coming of Messiah)....... then you need to see an HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT in detail to the STARTING of what is called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"!
5) WAS THERE???
ANSWER: Yes. In 1993 an historical event took place......the Oslo Accords. It was a "lied-to-agreement". The typology is clear > Laban (Arafat) contracted with Jacob (Israel) to work for seven years for the desire of Jacob's heart (Rachel, or today > peace). These were the seven "good years" - filled with hope that at the end of it, he would see fulfillment of his desire.
We know that the contract of the 7 good years was a "lied-to-agreement" because in Gen. 29:26 we see Jacob confronting Laban regarding his LIE (tricked with Leah, not Rachel, or today, tricked into giving up land for NOTHING in return). Laban says, "It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn." In other words, Laban KNEW ALL ALONG he was lying and going to trick Jacob....and so did Arafat.
The first week of Jacob's Trouble ends grieving because the labor was in vain.....and the 2nd week begins....the 7 bad years.....but from which Jacob shall be delivered and finally given the desire of his heart (peace).The analogy corresponds to the "three weeks of Jacob's Trouble" which is illustrated in the story told in Genesis 29-31 > The First Week Jacob contracted with Laban to work for Rachel....which corresponds to Yitzak Rabin contracting with Arafat in the Oslo Accords for the sake of peace. The Second Week finds Jacob still laboring for Rachel (peace)....however, it is a "non-negotiated week". There have been no negotiations, no agreements; only HARD LABOR. This Second Week is now the time the Lord has taken dominion - the 6,000 yrs of man's dominion has expired.... which coincidentally the Jews have taught (and indeed declared), that at the end of 6,000 years -at the end of the year 5760 - man's existence upon earth will have expired....and which is ushering in the 7th day, or the Lord's Day! Is this just a coincidence??? It is positively UNCANNY the DETAILS we are seeing!!!!!
The Third Week it is Laban who makes a contract with Jacob, We can understand this when we realize that Jacob (Israel) will receive his inheritance from among the nations when Messiah has returned to set up His Kingdom on earth. "Foreigners" will contract with Israel to clean up the carnage from Armageddon. They will be working those first seven years rebuilding the Millennial Temple. Israel will be THE HEAD OF THE NATIONS, no longer the tail. Israel will be the theocratic seat of the world - with Yeshua HaMashiach reigning over all the earth.Before the next question is asked, we have to look at one other thing that looks at Israel's Time clock and that is, "IF" the 40 year generation (TO ISRAEL- God's Time clock) is applied to the capturing of Jerusalem in 1967; then that will bring the conclusion of said 40 year generation in 2007!
6) IF THIS INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE IS VALID, then would one see the detailed fulfillment of the interpreted scripture?
ANSWER: Yes.7) WAS THERE?
ANSWER: Yes! There is another anaology that shows the "first generation" of Israel being led out of Egypt and wandering for 40 years, until all those who were 20 yrs. and upward died - only then could the children 19 yrs and under enter the Promised Land.
We see that same parallel in the birth of the "second generation of the NATION of Israel in the land" ..... at the age of adulthood (19 years from her birth in 1948) she reclaimed and reunified Jerusalem for the first time in 2,000 years! The 1967 Six Day War, began the countdown of THAT GENERATION WHICH WOULD NOT PASS AWAY BUT SEE ALL THINGS FULFUILLED.
The question is, "WHAT things fulfilled?" Matthew 24:24 > verse 30....the beginning of the conclusion...."And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming inthe clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This 40 year generation would necessarily have to end at the same timing as the ending of the Second Week of Jacob's Trouble - when he is saved out of it. DOES IT? YES! It will end in 2007.....with the most amazing timing falling at the END OF THE SECOND WEEK OF JACOB'S TROUBLE!...when Jacob will be saved out of it! In other words, we can see TWO separate analogies already that correspond and come together to illustrate and confirm the Timeline - which IS that we are indeed already well into the Time of Jacob's Trouble. The BIG questions are, then.....8) Can we expect to see an escalation of terror, and further sense of hopelessness as we wind up 2004? Can we expect someone to come on the scene that will confirm a covenant of (false) peace and (false) hope to Israel (and the world)?
Can we expect that this "Roadmap for Peace" which is to be implemented in 2005 to be attached somehow to the agreement that the antichrist will offer up? Can we expect to see that soon after the agreement is signed and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be an all out hell breaking loose when the antichrist demands worship - and believers are martyred for refusing, and Jews LIVING IN ISRAEL flee for their lives, for even though they are in UBELIEF, they will always fall back on honoring the God of their fathers and refusing to worship "other gods". Can we expect to see Israel turning back to God when all others forsake them? Can we expect the antichrist to mimic Christ and perhaps reveal himself as "god" right around the same time as our true Christ presented Himself to His people just before Passover (2006)....and if that holds true, can we expect a YEAR LONG "flood judgment" AS IN THE DAYS OF NOE.....lasting the same as Noah's flood - one year - anniversary to anniversary - one year in Noah's life!?????These are all questions that need to be pondered. There is alot of material and it cannot fit into one post. There is another amazing analogy that illustrates that ONE YEAR judgment....and how the "Covenant with the antichrist" is NOT the same as the SEVEN YEARS of the 70th Week and the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
Suffice it for now to say the 70th Week cannot be shortened....it is DETERMINED upon thy people Israel. So what are the days that will be shortened? The days of the Great Tribulation, such as never happened before. Jesus said except those days be shortened, even the very elect would be deceived....and no flesh would be saved.....but for their sake they will be shortened." This tells me that the elect - those who are saved, and those who WILL be saved are present during this time......but that it will be a comparatively short time, A YEAR (as in the days of Noe as Jesus said), because He will shorten those days for the elect.
This will be borne out in that year (2006) between the antichrist committing the abomination....subsequently pouring out persecution upon those who refuse to worship him (because he knows his time is short)....and that after this one year of wrath and tribulation, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven:.....JESUS WILL BE ON HIS WAY!But getting back to the beginning of the Second Week of Jacob's Trouble....look at the DETAILS of what was seen......
9) What happened historically TO THE DAY on the Jewish year of 5760, ROSH HASHANAH 2000...the ending of the "first week" of Jacob's Trouble...and the beginning of the Second Week of "7 bad years" ?
ANSWER: Ariel Sharon marched up onto the Temple Mount with an entourage' of soldiers (confronting Laban?) And thus began the Intifada - trouble which is growing worse by the day, sometimes by the hour! It is an unprecedented time of suicide bombers and terrorist attacks on civilians, so much so that most Israelis do not see any hope of peace at all. If you talk to them, as I have done, they see the situation as hopeless....and yet they still scoff or look doubtful or skeptical when Messiah is mentioned as coming to "save them out of this trouble." They are in unbelief - and they are practically hopeless. The only thing that CAN save them is indeed the coming of the Messiah - and He will do just that. He is coming to redeem ISRAEL - not the church. He is using -and will use- unprecedented trouble to bring them to the point of understanding there is no help for them apart from God! It is how He has always dealt with them throughout all time. He delivers them, they rebel, He punishes, then has mercy and compassion on them, He remembers His promise & His covenant, and he restores. It's how He will bring them to Himself once again -for the final time- in the 70th Week.10) Does the church need to be delivered in this way?
ANSWER: No. Right now God offers grace & imputed righteousness to Jew or Gentile, saint or sinner...all have access to the Throne of God through repentance (turning from sin), asking forgiveness, and faith in accepting that Jesus paid the price of redemption on the cross for us. God offers us salvation when we believe in our hearts and make confession with our mouths that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, sent from the Father to be our kinsman redeemer. He deals with individuals.However, even though the church does not need to be "delivered" - the church obviously is present right now during this 70th Week....which can only mean one thing....which is the greatest fear of the pre-trib believers. But facts are facts. The church is still here. The good news is > the things that are happening, and to come, are not meant for the church....except it will GAIN believers. What is happening and what is coming is to turn Israel back to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and for showing them who their Messiah WAS and IS. It is to this end that the Scripture says, "They will look upon Him whom they pierced, and they will mourn as for a son....." and this pertains to ISRAEL >>> "when they shall see Him the SECOND TIME ! When was the FIRST time they saw Him? AT HIS FIRST ADVENT - WHEN HE CAME AS A SUFFERING SERVANT....and they did not recognize Him. It was ignorance of the scriptures which foretold to the MONTH and DAY of His arrival!
But back to the church....Indeed, in these last days, the days of the Laodicean church (the church of "me" and "my rights"), we know that He said he would spew that church out of his mouth...and so He is no longer dealing with that "corporate church", but with individuals. But the fact is the Laodicean church is undeniably PRESENT NOW....and the pre-trib rapture has not happened, That the Laodicean church is still here does NOT mean that Jacob's Trouble could not have begun! We have to understand that the starting of the 70th Week does NOT depend upon the church -whether it is here or not-.......but rather, it depends on THE SET TIME FOR ISRAEL!
Again, you must ask yourself critical questions and be willing to accept the obvious truth no matter what view you hold. It is only truth that matters anyway - and no amount of trying to make the facts fit the viewpoint will help. The facts must be accepted even if it means a departure from what you have always "heard" or been taught. Indeed, true Faith will accept whatever God is doing, even if it is not to our own liking or comfort level. That's why I admire Job when I read, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." In other words, if we are truly currently IN the Time of Jacob's Trouble, let's stop worrying about having to go through this wretched time....and instead focus our prayers, and practice, on those who do not have the eternal security of the Holy Spirit abiding within. Let's look at the Jews and pray for them and what THEY are going through and the great losses they have and will suffer. For us who believe in Christ, we have faith in believing "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".....so what is so terrible if we have to go through "tribulation"....as did so many millions of saints in the past. Can our faith sustain us? Are we willing to really trust Him? He said He would never lose one of us...that no man can pluck us from His hand. So whether by death or by rapture, we know we are going home one way or the other. Which brings us to the next question........
11) Just what is the "Wrath of God" and to whom does it abide (rest upon) on?
ANSWER: The wrath of God is NOT, repeat NOT, the ordeal of the tribulation.
The wrath of God is eternal separation from Him forever. Wrath is the lack of righteousness, the lack of forgiveness, the lack of protection, the lack of eternal life in His presence that is the wrath of God. It is His righteous indignation and anger upon those who reject His Son Jesus Christ. The wrath of God rests upon those who do not believe. The wrath of God will NEVER rest upon the Believer. Everything Jesus ever said about never leaving us, never losing us, being with us always, leaving the ninety and nine to go and find the one lost sheep, never allowing even one to be plucked out of His hand, etc. etc.......all of that proves God the Father will never let Jesus lose one of His own...just as Jesus prayed for us before His crucifixion. WRATH IS NOT TRIBULATION, which is exactly what we must expect in this world.
People erroneously think God's wrath is simply the act of executing punishment and meting out terrible judgments......but the real wrath of God is the ultimate sending away from Himself all those who do not believe. Every good thing, every hope, eternal life with God and His faithful - all of this is lost to the unbeliever.....as God's wrath (eternal separation from Him) abides upon him.
So it isn't really a legitimate argument to say we will be saved from God's wrath through a pre-trib rapture. All that shows is an ignorance of what God's wrath really is. If it were true that God's wrath is only the coming terrible and violent events and deaths and tribulation....then certainly God's wrath must have abided upon millions of martyrs and saints of old. And that is not true. They suffered as they looked forward to redemption.....just as we may be called upon to suffer even though "we know whom we have believed and are persuaded that He is able to keep that which we've committed unto Him against that day! " Ask yourself..."WHAT day?" Are YOU persuaded He is able to keep that which you've committed unto Him against anything that is coming on this earth? The answer deep in your own heart will reveal your own trust in Him.There is so much more.....but I believe a time is coming very SOON when people will have to seriously reconsider the timeline that they've always taken for granted regarding the pre-trib rapture. Gina, it seems like you are beginning to do just that. I myself once staunchly defended the pre-trib rapture -and I won't say it won't happen. But I want to know the truth and prepare for it even if it doesn't go along with what I was always taught. And what I have found is not fear in the future, whatever that may be....but comfort in knowing our Lord overcame the world.....and so will we through Him. There is nothing else besides that...and if it's not enough - we are all miserably doomed.
Shalom, Sherry Vance
Interesting. Thanks. Long ago I became less dogmatic that the rapture had to precede the final seven years and have remained open either way. You may be correct. However, because the rapture, I believe, will be "as in the days of Noah" (Matthew 28), when thing are relatively normal and people are eating and drinking, marrying, etc., I believe it will be before things get really bad. I expect it could be, and will be, imminently.
Thanks again,
Jim